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The trimming discussion


Lyntha
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Hey guildies.  The officers need your input.

 

We have recently started "Trimming" the raid group on harder bosses to push progression.  This was never an option for ATR in the past due to a lack of flex raid on hard difficulty content.  In the past, the discussion has been something along the lines of "Oh, this is a 25man raid, so we are going to bring our 25 best people".  It's easy to tell someone they're sitting because they're not in the group of "Best 25 for this fight".  It's a different story to tell someone "Oh, we're sitting half the raid team on this hard boss because they're just not good enough".

 

What do you guys think ATR's "Trimming" policy should be?

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I don't mind trimming people when we've been wiping on a boss all night, the fact that it is flex allows us to do that and it lets us down bosses and get gear so next time when we fight it then its easier to carry the lower dps or people who are failing mechanics, that being said, warning is nice. last week when we dropped people and i got sat i wasn't aware that i had low dps on the primals because im a multidot spec and although i made them my priority, overall i wansnt doing enough, but If i was allowed another attempt to fix my mistake im certain it would not have been a problem, but the people who were warned didnt get another try to fix our mistake. I have no problem sitting, and maybe i should have pulled up the logs myself during the fight to check myself, but getting sat with virtually no warning sucks, that's my 2 cents.

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It's something we have been discussing Cute. Yes, we will do a better job on informing people in whispers that they need to step it up on a certain aspect of the fight.

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I don't mind trimming people when we've been wiping on a boss all night, the fact that it is flex allows us to do that and it lets us down bosses and get gear so next time when we fight it then its easier to carry the lower dps or people who are failing mechanics, that being said, warning is nice. last week when we dropped people and i got sat i wasn't aware that i had low dps on the primals because im a multidot spec and although i made them my priority, overall i wansnt doing enough, but If i was allowed another attempt to fix my mistake im certain it would not have been a problem, but the people who were warned didnt get another try to fix our mistake. I have no problem sitting, and maybe i should have pulled up the logs myself during the fight to check myself, but getting sat with virtually no warning sucks, that's my 2 cents.

Ftfk said he would start sitting low performers on blast furnace at 9:00, because of an issue we had break before that so the time they sat people was at 9:30... we came back from break at 9, and the attempt after I called out the people who needed to step up, and made a general statement that we needed more dps on the Elementalist's, because we can't kill them all in 2 shots. saying each attempt was around 6-8 minutes, that is about 3-4 attempts to fix the issue.  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

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I don't mind trimming people when we've been wiping on a boss all night, the fact that it is flex allows us to do that and it lets us down bosses and get gear so next time when we fight it then its easier to carry the lower dps or people who are failing mechanics, that being said, warning is nice. last week when we dropped people and i got sat i wasn't aware that i had low dps on the primals because im a multidot spec and although i made them my priority, overall i wansnt doing enough, but If i was allowed another attempt to fix my mistake im certain it would not have been a problem, but the people who were warned didnt get another try to fix our mistake. I have no problem sitting, and maybe i should have pulled up the logs myself during the fight to check myself, but getting sat with virtually no warning sucks, that's my 2 cents.

Ftfk said he would start sitting low performers on blast furnace at 9:00, because of an issue we had break before that so the time they sat people was at 9:30... we came back from break at 9, and the attempt after I called out the people who needed to step up, and made a general statement that we needed more dps on the Elementalist's, because we can't kill them all in 2 shots. saying each attempt was around 6-8 minutes, that is about 3-4 attempts to fix the issue.  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

 

 

post-20-0-37281500-1427755650_thumb.jpg

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I don't mind trimming people when we've been wiping on a boss all night, the fact that it is flex allows us to do that and it lets us down bosses and get gear so next time when we fight it then its easier to carry the lower dps or people who are failing mechanics, that being said, warning is nice. last week when we dropped people and i got sat i wasn't aware that i had low dps on the primals because im a multidot spec and although i made them my priority, overall i wansnt doing enough, but If i was allowed another attempt to fix my mistake im certain it would not have been a problem, but the people who were warned didnt get another try to fix our mistake. I have no problem sitting, and maybe i should have pulled up the logs myself during the fight to check myself, but getting sat with virtually no warning sucks, that's my 2 cents.

Ftfk said he would start sitting low performers on blast furnace at 9:00, because of an issue we had break before that so the time they sat people was at 9:30... we came back from break at 9, and the attempt after I called out the people who needed to step up, and made a general statement that we needed more dps on the Elementalist's, because we can't kill them all in 2 shots. saying each attempt was around 6-8 minutes, that is about 3-4 attempts to fix the issue.  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

 

there was a general call out for more dps on them but names weren't given until the attempt before people were sat, but we never got to the second phase of that attempt so we couldn't correct it. I pay attention to teamspeak and I take everyones opinion seriously on there and I don't recall my name being said until then, and unless you were looking at the logs we really didn't have a for sure way of telling what our dps was like on them. I was prioritizing them and so i thought my dps was fine on them so i didn't feel the need to let my dots drop off other targets unless it was effecting my single target dps which it turns out it was, so my bad, but I could have fixed it if I knew I was a problem. It's not like most fight mechanics where its really blatant when you are fucking it up, if you get it by a train and die you know you fucked up, if oregorger rolls over you, you fucked up, if your dps is low on a certain target, it isn't as obvious, believe me, if I had heard my name called 4 attempts before hand I would have had no problem dealing with it. normally I don't have logs open during raid because you simply dont need all that info, but that is a fight where its obviously worth it.

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If your dps isnt as high as the person in first place, you can get better, if your dps is topping the meters.... you can still improve. You should always be pushing to maximize your dps on priority and other targets.

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I don't mind trimming people when we've been wiping on a boss all night, the fact that it is flex allows us to do that and it lets us down bosses and get gear so next time when we fight it then its easier to carry the lower dps or people who are failing mechanics, that being said, warning is nice. last week when we dropped people and i got sat i wasn't aware that i had low dps on the primals because im a multidot spec and although i made them my priority, overall i wansnt doing enough, but If i was allowed another attempt to fix my mistake im certain it would not have been a problem, but the people who were warned didnt get another try to fix our mistake. I have no problem sitting, and maybe i should have pulled up the logs myself during the fight to check myself, but getting sat with virtually no warning sucks, that's my 2 cents.

Ftfk said he would start sitting low performers on blast furnace at 9:00, because of an issue we had break before that so the time they sat people was at 9:30... we came back from break at 9, and the attempt after I called out the people who needed to step up, and made a general statement that we needed more dps on the Elementalist's, because we can't kill them all in 2 shots. saying each attempt was around 6-8 minutes, that is about 3-4 attempts to fix the issue.  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

 

there was a general call out for more dps on them but names weren't given until the attempt before people were sat, but we never got to the second phase of that attempt so we couldn't correct it. I pay attention to teamspeak and I take everyones opinion seriously on there and I don't recall my name being said until then, and unless you were looking at the logs we really didn't have a for sure way of telling what our dps was like on them. I was prioritizing them and so i thought my dps was fine on them so i didn't feel the need to let my dots drop off other targets unless it was effecting my single target dps which it turns out it was, so my bad, but I could have fixed it if I knew I was a problem. It's not like most fight mechanics where its really blatant when you are fucking it up, if you get it by a train and die you know you fucked up, if oregorger rolls over you, you fucked up, if your dps is low on a certain target, it isn't as obvious, believe me, if I had heard my name called 4 attempts before hand I would have had no problem dealing with it. normally I don't have logs open during raid because you simply dont need all that info, but that is a fight where its obviously worth it.

 

Skada/Recount -> Enemy damage taken -> Primal Elementalist.. you don't need logs to see the damage, logs just give a more accurate representation. When there was a general point made, I then called the lower people out. Even if you don't hear, if there is a dps problem on a target, you should look at that next time. For example, for our Blackhand p2 Progress, the demolisher needs to be dps'd by the range some.

 

 

 

I don't mind trimming people when we've been wiping on a boss all night, the fact that it is flex allows us to do that and it lets us down bosses and get gear so next time when we fight it then its easier to carry the lower dps or people who are failing mechanics, that being said, warning is nice. last week when we dropped people and i got sat i wasn't aware that i had low dps on the primals because im a multidot spec and although i made them my priority, overall i wansnt doing enough, but If i was allowed another attempt to fix my mistake im certain it would not have been a problem, but the people who were warned didnt get another try to fix our mistake. I have no problem sitting, and maybe i should have pulled up the logs myself during the fight to check myself, but getting sat with virtually no warning sucks, that's my 2 cents.

Ftfk said he would start sitting low performers on blast furnace at 9:00, because of an issue we had break before that so the time they sat people was at 9:30... we came back from break at 9, and the attempt after I called out the people who needed to step up, and made a general statement that we needed more dps on the Elementalist's, because we can't kill them all in 2 shots. saying each attempt was around 6-8 minutes, that is about 3-4 attempts to fix the issue.  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

 

 

attachicon.gifCBSx1nKWQAA0HFt.jpg

 

1) don't know why you posted that. there was no salt there

2) you make it worse when you call it out

3) List of Punishable Infractions:

      Intentionally doing anything disrespectful towards another member

4) Phobia: "It is really pathetic that a post telling our raiders to stop being shitty toward eachother had to be made." 

 

^ Hypocrite

Edited by Muln
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Imcute, you scored an average of 26k throughout the 11 heroic wipes we had on blast furnace

 

You placed 10th out of 14 dps that night, but since Phobia and Mirus only came in for the last wipe and then the kill attempt, you technically came in 10th out of 12dps

 

If you run a dps addon you probably saw yourself on the lower part of the meters - which kinda speaks for itself that you have room for improvement

 

If you don't, it can be helpful to download skada/recount/whatever to see how you perform on average.

 

If you do have one but think that your performance was "fine" as you say, I think the officers have a different standard of good performance than yours.

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is there a reason why this became an attack on my performance? I have skada, I'm aware I'm on the lower end of the meters on that fight, no I was not aware that i could set skada to just one type of enemy so thanks muln I'm not really complaining about your comments, they were constructive, and I do appreciate that. my only point here was that I wanted warning before getting sat guys, my dps may have been low overall but that doesn't mean I couldn't have met standards on dps on the primal elementalists, the problem we were having wednesday wasnt overall dps, it was dps on the primal elementalist, which I would have changed and will change for this week. Its a casual guild, that doesn't mean I can coast by with bad dps, but my dps is not that bad on every fight, and when my internet isn't giving me trouble I usually do pretty well on mechanics. I never said I didn't have room for improvement, I've done a lot this patch and switched to a spec I'm unfamiliar with to raise my dps which was garbage when I first joined, overall, I've been doing a little less than mastric who is playing demo, the best current lock spec, which I've been learning, but am not comfortable enough with to raid with yet. sure I need improvement overall, but my post was just asking for a warning. If anyone wants to talk with me about my performance thats fine but thats not what this forum post is about.

Edited by Imcute
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So much for joking around

 

post-20-0-59023700-1427771795_thumb.jpg


But ya, we would love to never have to sit anyone, but with the raid scaling like it does based upon number of people in the raid, having people very low on dps doesn't offset the amount of health the bosses gain by them being in there. We can work together to help every member improve. 


 

  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

 

 

I put the picture in because of this sentence right here. If you want to be sarcastic and a smart ass, don't complain when I give you a smart ass and sarcastic response.


There is 20-30 people in the raid group at any point in time, we do our best to make sure everyone feels like their opinion is valid, but it's hard to discern who's opinion to listen too when you have a bunch of people are trying to get you to use their idea. Can't use em all

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So much for joking around

 

attachicon.gifs9446_NoFunAllowedHere_RED_CRM__76094.1405347040.600.600.jpg

 

 

  I guess since i'm not an officer i'm never heard/taken seriously.

 

 

I put the picture in because of this sentence right here. If you want to be sarcastic and a smart ass, don't complain when I give you a smart ass and sarcastic response.

There is 20-30 people in the raid group at any point in time, we do our best to make sure everyone feels like their opinion is valid, but it's hard to discern who's opinion to listen too when you have a bunch of people are trying to get you to use their idea. Can't use em all

I wasn't talking about being heard by an officer though, and i wasn't talking about a strategy, did you read my whole post??? I'm talking about other raiders going "oh he called me out, oh well he isn't an officer don't have to take him by his word". I didn't say that line to any of the officers at all... and it isn't a joke, when you say you will pay me 30k to get the salty title... Also how is that me being sarcastic/smart ass??

Edited by Muln
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Then I read/took it the wrong way, so, sorry.

Edited by Phobia
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Then I read/took it the wrong way, so, sorry.

Thought you would learn being 60 years old that you should only read in monotone and not try and see if something is sarcastic...

 

that was me being smart ass/sarcastic

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I just pointed out the poor dps because you said you didn't realize you were performing poorly dealing with primal elementalists

 

You focused on not letting your dots drop on other targets too, which means you didn't perform too well on an aoe fight.

 

I'm just saying if you're not even focusing on the kill target (primal elementalist) and doing aoe rotations/dots/whatever, while performing poorly compared to people who focused more on the single target rotation for that phase, you shouldn't really be surprised with how you were removed.

 

I do agree with the fact that warnings should be given out (I don't know if snugg/ftfk gave whispers to those people last week) but with your situation it shouldn't have been too mindblowing

Edited by mokou
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If we consider progression alone I think it would be necessary to trim on fights, but not without giving people some number of attempts to at least give them a chance to show they can do the fight and can do the mechanics. Because of how raiding scales now, if a couple people are underperforming and not meeting the bare minimum necessary to cover the boost the fight gets from their presence then they are being carried - either slightly or heavily - by the raiders who are going above and beyond for the fight. Raiders meeting dead even neither help or hinder the fight in terms of health and are just extra bodies present.

 

We are a casual guild. Not everyone is here min/maxing and spending hours perfecting their class because it is casual. That being said, if we don't progress or we are struggling to down new bosses.. even those here for just a casual guild start to get frustrated bashing their head against a wall. Calling out people doing something wrong or sending whispers that they need to step it up or they may be sat would be a good idea since not everyone checks Skada after every wipe and certainly not everyone checks logs after a raid to see how they did. Warning is good. It's also good to take care to remember what the warning was about and make sure the person warned has at least one attempt to try and fix their errors (be that we make it to the part of the fight where they were having problems in that attempt).

 

Trimming the group before even attempting a new boss is ill-advised, if anyone considers that. We've proved time and time again that after sitting people one week (like with IM) to down a boss, the very next week we were able to down it with the entire group. It's very possible for us to down new bosses as a whole... but that also doesn't mean we should keep pushing the entire group through 100+ attempts when we could down it with a few people on bench to give everyone the boost to down it as a group next week. But a certain number of attempts does everyone good to get used to the mechanics and at least attempting to down a dragon together.

 

If we can't down it together the first time it isn't a huge deal so long as people are warned and given a chance to better their errors. We'll be able to get in more people, maybe everyone, next week when we kill the stupid dragon again.

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We had a solid 4 hours over multiple nights on BF before we trimmed, we then trimmed and one shot it. This week we will clear up to BF again and hopefully with a full group down BF again.

 

In terms of people not min/max specing their characters, a lot of that has been taken out, there is no immense reforge and gemming table and a huge talent tree to choose from, there is no crazy research that needs done. Read Icy Veins, or something similar, and see if what they recommend. Use WeakAuras to assist in your rotation if you are still learning the rotation, look out there with google, plenty of rotation helpers already made.

 

I do not expect everyone to be able to get 100% dps out of their toons, but I do expect everyone to take the small amount of time necessary to get within say 15% of what your class/spec/ilvl simm for. That is not a hardcore thing, it is pretty easy. 

 

If anyone needs simmed or help finding WA strings to assist them, let me know, I am more than happy to help.

 

The officers, at least as far as I know, never WANT to trim; however, it is sometimes necessary to make group comp changes in order to down a boss and get over the hump. No one likes to be sat, I was sat for the first IM kill and it sucked, but I was doing 23k dps. Last week I did just shy of 40k. It took a WA string and about 45 min to make that difference, if you do not have 45 min extra to be putting into the game then there is an issue.

 

Hopefully no trims are needed this week, everyone should rewatch the HBF and H Blackhand videos, these fights are tough but I am sure we can down them with no problems if everyone shows up with their A game.

 

EDIT: Also mandatory Roqwell for Prime Minister.

Edited by Mythosaur
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We used to have a bench to rotate people out who could not do mechanics when raid sized was fixed. We did this even as recent as our attempts into mythic Highmaul. With flex size we no longer need to have a bench because we can bring as many people as we can down content with. Trimming the group essentially has the same functionality as subbing out players in the fixed raid size, it allows us to optimize our group for the highest chance at success. While we may not be sitting a person to replace with another guildie it has the same desired effect because it lowers our overall raid dps (which is what happens when we swap in/out players for other players) and the bosses health becomes less to offset.

Personally I only ever would want to sit/swap/trim when mechanics are being failed. Concentrated burn phases are a mechanic, and that is why I personally advocated for trimming on Maidens attempts and Blast furnace. For maidens, we were falling behind on dps and getting overwhelmed by turrets. For blast furnace last week, I personally felt that with our full group we were not capable of burning elementalists repeatedly and that is why I pushed for trim.

I don't expect people to do perfect or near perfect sim dps. To be honest, a lot of our strategies probably don't allow for it. I also don't expect everyone's dps to be even, I personally will not be able to match hunter DPS. What I do expect is that people give themselves the tools that we need from them as an individual to accomplish the needs of the raid group as a whole. You might have to use different talents on a fight or you might have to switch specs for a fight. It might be an inconvenience, but by doing this you help everyone.

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