mokou Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't know where you're getting your numbers but Jesseh is clearly not doing "average" dps of an average raider Today he came in 9th percentile for Gruul, 6th for Oregorger (where he died to rolling), 24th for Hans&Franz, and 15th for Beastlord Last week he came in 8th percentile for Gruul, 18th for Oregorger, and 12th for Hans&Franz If he placed so far below the average and/or median EVERY SINGLE FIGHT with a 676 ilvl, he's clearly not an average raider - just a freeloader I'm not saying everyone needs to place within 80th, 90th percentile for their specs but there has to be improvements because I think there are some people who don't put in enough effort to deserve their spot. These people are holding up progression for the rest of the raid group I'm really curious as to whether or not you're actually looking at the numbers or have a different standard for an "average raider" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesseh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Not pointing fingers but Jesseh clearly hasnt been an "outstanding raider" His poor dps and constant deaths to avoidable mechanics can attest to that The only part he excels at is his attendance and attendance only Neither can Homeslice you should get over yourself. And pointing fingers while saying your not pointing fingers is still pointing fingers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokou Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Get over myself? Over what? Why'd I need to do something when it's YOU who's not even performing on an average level Or did you mean I should just get over your performance like it's nothing? And I didn't bring you up out of nowhere - Snugg was the one who brought it up and I've been just refuting him because the numbers he sees seems to be different from what I see on the logs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshattner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I think he ment you should get over your elitest attitude you got going, where you talk condecending towards the entire raid every night and cause for a negative raiding environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortelinnor Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't want to be pointing fingers, but why is it that elitist assholes are allowed to be bitches to everyone and not even get any warning for it? Meanwhile me and Will get shit on for even the smallest thing we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesseh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Idk what I've done to offend you so much. I don't really care, realistically your going to ostracise yourself and wont be my issue. some of the deaths are from unfortunate mishaps from KS because in truth I can't be combat in half the fights and be able to do anything. So I'm playing new specs and trying to learn it so get off my ass. if you want to be an elitist jackass maybe you should find a new raid group. ATR is a Casual raiding guild, were its designed to be fun and yeah we push progression but its not worth it if your going to be sucking the fun out of the raid environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roqwell Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Mokou, there are better ways to tell a person that they aren't performing as well as they could be and just stating their faults to an officer similar to how a kid tells on his younger brother for breaking the vase isn't a good way to go about it. Pull him aside, point out he could be doing better and maybe suggest researching his class more and making sure he has everything down. Maybe point him in the direction. Give some constructive criticism and not just criticism so it's actually helpful and received better. Jesseh, on the other hand, also shouldn't get too defensive over a blunt and ill-offered criticism and return rudeness. Even if it's blunt and on the surface rude Mokou does have a point that your DPS isn't always grand and you could do better with mechanics. What Snugg said is still true... compare present Jesseh to SOO Jesseh and he is significantly better, much more reliable, and does better DPS. Take present Jesseh alone, and it's also clear he isn't amazing. Not bad, but could still improve. Don't get too heated guys. It's a discussion, not an arguement. Moving onto another subject that Mort touched on there is a consistent issue with Will and Mort getting blamed and taking a lot of hate. Even in teasing jest the venom is still there underneath. They both get snapped at a lot but it isn't always for the real issue with the two of them and usually they are responded to with more negativity than the average person screwing up. Like tonight, when Jay accidentally clicked the lock portal and facepulled the boss it was taken with slight annoyance but clear forgiveness and the correct punishment was given without bias. Mort has done similar things in the past but although he gets the same punishment Jay gets the verbal warnings are usually harsher and more mean-spirited. Same goes with warnings to Will and I know both of them have done some bad stuff in the past the underlying grudge held to both of them needs to stop and they should be treated the same way other raiders are. People change and improve for the better. But it's also important, Mort and Will, to look at yourself and both your improvements and faults. Mort you are actually pretty dang good at mechanics and from what I hear a good healer at times. Resto shamans ain't the best but I'm sure there are ways you could improve but overall you are one of the more mechanically sound people in the raid. You may miss what an officer explained but it also shows something that you aren't afraid to speak up when you don't understand and ask for clarification (although again, people get unnecessarily annoyed with you for it). But you do still have the problem of talking when it isn't necessary. Making idle comments during a fight or saying whatever comes to mind even if it doesn't pertain to the situation. You also sometimes click the wrong thing like with the bloodlust fiasco the other night and sometimes in the past with that pesky earth elemental. Will you can do some kickass DPS and are sometimes quite funny to have around. Generally, you're mechanically sound and at least you always know what to do but you don't always do it. You die a lot and not just in one case, multiple cases. You know the mechanics but when it comes to staying alive you seem to have trouble. Just as with Mort, you also have a problem with talking when it isn't necessary but in a different way to Mort. You don't speak out quite as much as Mort but when you're told to quiet down a bit (given you are saying something rude or we are about to pull) you sometimes don't and just keep going. If you feel it's unfair then you can bring it up later but to ignore when someone tells you to hush and talk over them makes everything you are saying go over their head because you are treating their request for silence with disrespect and continuing to talk. This isn't a post for calling out other people. Frankly, it should rarely be the case where you call out an individual unless you feel it absolutely necessary, then directly to an officer for concern. If you have a problem with someone, make the effort to work it out with them instead of blowing up on a thread like this when we're supposed to have a plain discussion about the new rules... alright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesseh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Roqwell your not wrong in that, and I'm aware I don't always perform, but he has had an issue with me for a few weeks now making off the cuff remarks about everything I do wrong, more then that like everything is my fault. Instead of being man enough to come to me and talk it out he chooses to piss around talk to officers and continually call me shit at every turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summa Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't know where you're getting your numbers but Jesseh is clearly not doing "average" dps of an average raider Today he came in 9th percentile for Gruul, 6th for Oregorger (where he died to rolling), 24th for Hans&Franz, and 15th for Beastlord Last week he came in 8th percentile for Gruul, 18th for Oregorger, and 12th for Hans&Franz If he placed so far below the average and/or median EVERY SINGLE FIGHT with a 676 ilvl, he's clearly not an average raider - just a freeloader I'm not saying everyone needs to place within 80th, 90th percentile for their specs but there has to be improvements because I think there are some people who don't put in enough effort to deserve their spot. These people are holding up progression for the rest of the raid group I'm really curious as to whether or not you're actually looking at the numbers or have a different standard for an "average raider" By this attitude right here, I should not be raiding at all. We over heal every fight. Disc priests dont do well while fighting another disc for shields. With your logic, I would not be performing like an "average"raider should. I do not get involved in these types of things, I do not like drama. And I will likely get negative responses for speaking my mind. But I wasnt brought up to not say it like it is, so I am going to just do that and deal with what people say afterwards. Honestly, I have tried to stay out of this. But after reading some responses I feel the need to respond. This whole post is complete Bullshit. Its going come back and bite people in the ass and essentially alienate one half of the guild from the other. This post is going to lead to people calling each other out, pointing out flaws in a CASUAL guild, and show peoples elitest attitudes. This post is basically the same post that was done last month, and the months before with some wording changed around. Nothing was done then besides people getting pissed off and bitching at each other and officers stating their authority. At this point, its becoming a bigger deal since it seems that half the guild and officers want to make the guild more raiding orientated and half the guild wants to stay casual and have a good time together raiding and joking around. It seems this has become a bigger deal because we have lost people in the last couple months to "lack of progression or wanting to raid more hardcore" I feel like decisions like this should have been presented to the guild as a whole. While there are officers, this is supposed to be a "family" guild full of friends, there are 30+ raiders here. Some decisions are not an "Officer knows best" and are better presented to the guild to see how they want to progress. Not just as a pole type thing either. i agree with what anksy said earlier, a casual guild is one that is flexible. This post and the raid attitude lately makes it seem as though the officers want to lead this to a semi-casual more raid orientated guild. In response to something earlier, I call complete bull shit on the whole "no one wants to see anyone be kicked" statement. I can honestly say, i have no problem with mort or will. I was not here where whatever issues happened that required them to be kicked before. As a person essentially looking from the outside in, all i see is raiders, officers, and even friends and family getting on their case. They were both brought back, both are performing well. That should be the end of the discussion. Whatever issues that there were should have been done with when they came back. But it seems like when they get "picked" on, and then try to defend themselves or say something, its not taken seriously or they end up in trouble or with warnings. This solves nothing. It basically is the officers enabling this to happen and leading to the result of those two being given "final" warnings about their guild status. How is this fair? If the officers are going to enable and even contribute to this talk. How is that not "wanting" someone out of the guild? Its basically waiting for that person to either do something to get kicked or get sick of the treatment and leave on their own. I know how much work a guild is to run, lead, recruit for and make productive. I have been there. It is not fun and extremely stressful. I just think that this is not the best way to go about this. Especially if people who have been here long amounts of time and have seen how the guild was to where it is not are not happy or wanting to be in raids/show up. This is my 2 cents on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshattner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Well me and mastric just went over my death reports for the past few weeks and my survivability has averaged in the 90 percents. So I don't think me dying is really that big of an issue Roq, but I do appreciate your comments and will keep them in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgeworth Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Regarding the guild members, I think there's an important distinction between people who put in a lot of effort into character, and those who don't. For maximum effort, running lfr/normal on optional time to get Abro stones/Ele runes, keeping a stockpile of flasks and pots [and even augment runes], research boss fights, are enchanted and gemmed, minmax as much as possible and know their class/spec extremely well. I think that there is a certain level of tolerance for bs/silliness/etc in two categories: performance on bosses, and attitude. I think that every raider fits somewhere between these two categories, with a mix of traits from both. Usually, the players who put in more effort are among the first perspective. Perspective One: Players who perform well but have attitudes that annoy others are seen as preferable to 'dead weight' or underperforming players who dont put effort into their character, and just show up to get carried. As long as we're killing bosses, shit talking/joke insults at a reasonable level can be seen as acceptable. Likeable people who die repeatedly to mechanics are 'holding us back', and wasting our time, leads to annoyance. Perspective Two: Toxic attitudes ruin the experience of the raid, even if they are performing well. RL and other stuff can be seen as factors that are forgiving for player performance, and loyalty to guild is seen as more important. Casual atmosphere lets players relax and enjoy the game, not taking it too seriously to ruin the fun. Not expecting top-tier performance, since the guild focus is not set to 'maximum progression' but to keeping the raiding community together. Most players have some mix of the two, even the officers themselves. The raid atmosphere and rules are an amalgamation of the two, leading to some confusion in how we raiders are expected to act. The rules are enforced, then they are guidelines, then they are revised again, then the cycle repeats. Regarding performance of players...I'd like to think I perform decently well, there are some fights where my computer takes a dump [CPUGorger] and I personally think I underperform for my gear level. Now, there are a few who are in new territory the past few weeks regarding their spec or class [Jesseh trying out Assassination as an example], and are underperforming right now, if the logs are accurate. Yeah, it kinda sucks for people consistently ranking but we're not exactly a tryhard guild. We're a two-night guild that is relatively flexible. We're not really requiring people do 90%+ percentile dps, and while a few of us consistently rank like that, not everyone does, or at least not on every fight. TBH, I feel like the new 'strict rules' are kinda killing the fun atmosphere in the raid. I know I am not the only one feeling that way. I can understand the rationale behind them, but...it's like a life-jacket that's supposed to keep people afloat, only to find it covered in diarrhea. The guild has lost a few raiders since the Xpac launched partially because we're too casual, and partially because we have had a shitty environment. There is a perceived lack of flexibility from the officers [which is somewhat true] and I can understand people leaving to try new guilds out. To anyone who dared read this abomination of a post, if anything needs clarity, let me know. The following is an accurate portrayal of my feelings towards you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortelinnor Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 For maximum effort, running lfr/normal on optional time to get Abro stones/Ele runes, keeping a stockpile of flasks and pots [and even augment runes], research boss fights, are enchanted and gemmed, minmax as much as possible and know their class/spec extremely well. Some people are part of a semi-casual guild (or a so-called one) simply because they don't have the time to run the raid on optionnal nights. The rules are enforced, then they are guidelines, then they are revised again, then the cycle repeats. That's a problem that makes me sceptical every time a new "Rules thread" comes around the corner. TBH, I feel like the new 'strict rules' are kinda killing the fun atmosphere in the raid. I know I am not the only one feeling that way. I can understand the rationale behind them, but...it's like a life-jacket that's supposed to keep people afloat, only to find it covered in diarrhea. This, this and this. The comparison is surprisingly accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 We will work towards being a better, stronger guild. Ive put to much time and energy into this guild to watch some drama tear it apart. All we.can do is get all input to move forward and do whats best for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourettsbear Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) You all need to grow the fuck up. If you didn't act like children, rules like this wouldn't need to be discussed. The equation is pretty simple. This is a game. We play this game to have fun. On one hand, we have people who constantly disrupt the raid, and ruin the experience for others...Leave, or smarten up, but grow the fuck up. On the other, we have elitist attitudes, who call our more casual raider's out on things pick fun of people to boost there Epeen's.. Grow the fuck up. ATR is a casual guild..But just because we're casual doesn't mean we can't be focused. I was not part of the guild pre- SOO. I apped and was recruited for the progression, on a casual schedule. I think you seriously all need to give your heads a shake. I thought this was an 18+ guild. The attendance issue discussion has been great. We appreciate your feedback. We will discuss this. But Mort, quit trying to get this fucking fiddle played for you. You fucked up, on a regular basis, you were ruining the raid experience for other members. Own that, Accept it, or fuck off. Summa, I appreciate your constructive discussion.. But tell me exactly what you'd do in these situations, and I can point out 10 people who would have a problem with it. in WORLD OF WARCRAFT WE RAID, STOP RUINING THAT EXPERIENCE FOR OTHERS. Edited February 11, 2015 by Tourettsbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythosaur Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 ATR was founded as a community for people to have fun and see end game content. We never had to have a set of rules because people could follow the golden rule, dont be a dick (most of the time. We have fallen into a pattern of people thinking they are better than everyone else or giving shit where no shit needs given or constantly taking everything personally. This is a game, we are fighting over little bits and bytes for certain pieces of code that are marked up with a purple name. I understand sometimes things get heated, it happens, but live and let live and just play nice. We are not calling out certain raiders because we don't like them, I got docked EP last night when my dumbass face pulled Gruul, and I understand i deserved it. Accidents that still cause the guild to waste time are still a waste of time and should be punished accordingly. Please stop criticizing for the sake of criticizing, make it constructive, reaching out to players you think are under-performing will help bolster the whole guild! Just because there are now rules does not mean the guild is still not casual, if you think these rules make us hardcore, then go talk to someone who is actually in a real hardcore guild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Get over myself? Over what? Why'd I need to do something when it's YOU who's not even performing on an average level Or did you mean I should just get over your performance like it's nothing? And I didn't bring you up out of nowhere - Snugg was the one who brought it up and I've been just refuting him because the numbers he sees seems to be different from what I see on the logs Numbers are from parses. As I said, he had problems early on then appeared to have fixed it. See the following: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/991671/6/#boss=1706 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/991671/6/# These are his normal parses for Butcher and Kargath. He started off rough, but then was well above 75 percentile on both fights. Looking at most of the fights in highmaul, he was above 50 percentile a lot of the time. After he improved and showed that he was doing alright, I stopped monitoring his numbers and didn't see how poorly he was doing in BRF. It's not reasonable to expect the officers to analyze the numbers for every single raider every single week. We try to identify individual issues and address them, not fix the world. I don't want to be pointing fingers, but why is it that elitist assholes are allowed to be bitches to everyone and not even get any warning for it? Meanwhile me and Will get shit on for even the smallest thing we do. Mokou lacts tact. But he brings up valid points. We should all be looking to help each other and improve our performance. If Jesseh is struggling, he should be working to improve himself. Looking at the highmaul numbers above, he clearly did well in the past so he's not a bad player. That doesn't change the fact that his performance in BRF so far has been not great and needs improvement. Mokou's post called to attention Jesseh's performance. He never once insulted Jesseh or called him names or anything. His goal with the post was to improve Jesseh's performance or at least call attention to the fact that improvements need to be made. Could he have more tact and been a bit nicer about it? Sure. But what he said was correct. By comparison, your post called him an elitist asshole and a bitch. How do you even see these things as being equal, let alone you being in the right and him being in the wrong? The officers will be having a chat with you before raid. Idk what I've done to offend you so much. I don't really care, realistically your going to ostracise yourself and wont be my issue. some of the deaths are from unfortunate mishaps from KS because in truth I can't be combat in half the fights and be able to do anything. So I'm playing new specs and trying to learn it so get off my ass. if you want to be an elitist jackass maybe you should find a new raid group. ATR is a Casual raiding guild, were its designed to be fun and yeah we push progression but its not worth it if your going to be sucking the fun out of the raid environment. This makes sense. If he's learning a new spec to improve his performance, he's working to improve. Keep tweaking man. Mokou, there are better ways to tell a person that they aren't performing as well as they could be and just stating their faults to an officer similar to how a kid tells on his younger brother for breaking the vase isn't a good way to go about it. Pull him aside, point out he could be doing better and maybe suggest researching his class more and making sure he has everything down. Maybe point him in the direction. Give some constructive criticism and not just criticism so it's actually helpful and received better. Jesseh, on the other hand, also shouldn't get too defensive over a blunt and ill-offered criticism and return rudeness. Even if it's blunt and on the surface rude Mokou does have a point that your DPS isn't always grand and you could do better with mechanics. What Snugg said is still true... compare present Jesseh to SOO Jesseh and he is significantly better, much more reliable, and does better DPS. Take present Jesseh alone, and it's also clear he isn't amazing. Not bad, but could still improve. Don't get too heated guys. It's a discussion, not an arguement. Roqwell nailed it. Moving onto another subject that Mort touched on there is a consistent issue with Will and Mort getting blamed and taking a lot of hate. Even in teasing jest the venom is still there underneath. They both get snapped at a lot but it isn't always for the real issue with the two of them and usually they are responded to with more negativity than the average person screwing up. Like tonight, when Jay accidentally clicked the lock portal and facepulled the boss it was taken with slight annoyance but clear forgiveness and the correct punishment was given without bias. Mort has done similar things in the past but although he gets the same punishment Jay gets the verbal warnings are usually harsher and more mean-spirited. Same goes with warnings to Will and I know both of them have done some bad stuff in the past the underlying grudge held to both of them needs to stop and they should be treated the same way other raiders are. People change and improve for the better. But it's also important, Mort and Will, to look at yourself and both your improvements and faults. Mort you are actually pretty dang good at mechanics and from what I hear a good healer at times. Resto shamans ain't the best but I'm sure there are ways you could improve but overall you are one of the more mechanically sound people in the raid. You may miss what an officer explained but it also shows something that you aren't afraid to speak up when you don't understand and ask for clarification (although again, people get unnecessarily annoyed with you for it). But you do still have the problem of talking when it isn't necessary. Making idle comments during a fight or saying whatever comes to mind even if it doesn't pertain to the situation. You also sometimes click the wrong thing like with the bloodlust fiasco the other night and sometimes in the past with that pesky earth elemental. Will you can do some kickass DPS and are sometimes quite funny to have around. Generally, you're mechanically sound and at least you always know what to do but you don't always do it. You die a lot and not just in one case, multiple cases. You know the mechanics but when it comes to staying alive you seem to have trouble. Just as with Mort, you also have a problem with talking when it isn't necessary but in a different way to Mort. You don't speak out quite as much as Mort but when you're told to quiet down a bit (given you are saying something rude or we are about to pull) you sometimes don't and just keep going. If you feel it's unfair then you can bring it up later but to ignore when someone tells you to hush and talk over them makes everything you are saying go over their head because you are treating their request for silence with disrespect and continuing to talk. This isn't a post for calling out other people. Frankly, it should rarely be the case where you call out an individual unless you feel it absolutely necessary, then directly to an officer for concern. If you have a problem with someone, make the effort to work it out with them instead of blowing up on a thread like this when we're supposed to have a plain discussion about the new rules... alright? I thought I had a way with words but Roqwell's analysis of the situation is spot-on. Regarding singling Mort and Will out: We obviously try not to do it and I don't feel that we outwardly do single them out. But nobody can deny that they have had a lot of issues in the past and it's hard not to want to jump on people who continue to have problems and stamp out the issue immediately. It's human nature. As you said Roqwell, they are both deflecting attention away from the actual issue (Them causing issues) and not focusing as much on fixing what they're doing wrong. Roqwell your not wrong in that, and I'm aware I don't always perform, but he has had an issue with me for a few weeks now making off the cuff remarks about everything I do wrong, more then that like everything is my fault. Instead of being man enough to come to me and talk it out he chooses to piss around talk to officers and continually call me shit at every turn. Passive-agressive stuff like this really can get on people's nerves. The context of the situation would be completely different if you would just have some tact Mokou. You want our raid team to improve, it's not hard to see that. But you are not solving any issues if the method in which you communicate this comes off as aggressive and degrading. This is not Blood Legion, we're not going to just say "You are doing shitty dps". Instead, have a heart and realize that you are talking to another human being who has feelings and doesn't like being put out there. Take all of that passion for improvement and funnel it into more constructive criticism instead of negative criticism. By this attitude right here, I should not be raiding at all. We over heal every fight. Disc priests dont do well while fighting another disc for shields. With your logic, I would not be performing like an "average"raider should. I do not get involved in these types of things, I do not like drama. And I will likely get negative responses for speaking my mind. But I wasnt brought up to not say it like it is, so I am going to just do that and deal with what people say afterwards. Honestly, I have tried to stay out of this. But after reading some responses I feel the need to respond. This whole post is complete Bullshit. Its going come back and bite people in the ass and essentially alienate one half of the guild from the other. This post is going to lead to people calling each other out, pointing out flaws in a CASUAL guild, and show peoples elitest attitudes. This post is basically the same post that was done last month, and the months before with some wording changed around. Nothing was done then besides people getting pissed off and bitching at each other and officers stating their authority. You're fine Summa. You are one of our strongest healers. Also, we don't fight each other for shields that much. It's one thing to have two disc priests for a 10man raid. It's totally different thing to have 2 disc priests for 25-30 people. Not only that, but do you remember the first time we did Heroic Butcher? We were competing for WS debuffs and it didn't work out for either of us. At that point, I started leaning more heavily on CoW usage and try to ease up on PW:S usage. Healing logs will corroborate this. I'm not doubting that occasionally you could perform better if we underhealed and/or didn't use 2 disc priests. But it wouldn't be a huge difference and you are already doing a great job. Those hardcore guilds that underheal fights can only do so because their raiders are absolutely amazing at avoiding damage, healing themselves and managing defensive CD's. Our raid is just not as capable. That's not a knock on our raid either. It's not fair to compare somebody who raids 2 days a week for fun to a group of people who will literally raid for 80+ hours a week when new content comes out. It makes no sense to string by on barely having enough healers if we can just add 1 or 2 more and still beat the berserk timer while having a bigger healing cushion. Regarding the post being the same - I disagree. This is more of a reflection on my own leadership style than anything. I try to give people the respect and freedom to manage their own problems and resolve their own issues. I try to treat people like adults and let them grow and improve organically, while also being hands-on with people that require improvement. That has worked with this guild in the past. If you have a raid with 95% of people like this and 5% of people who act like children, the 95% will be much more vocal and keep that raider in check. It's a group mentality. Our raid just doesn't have that makeup. We have some amazing people in this guild who require no hand-holding and manage their own issues. We also have some people who don't realize how much of a headache they cause others and really do need their hand held. I tried to be the person to do the hand-holding and lead them down a path to improvement. Sometimes it would work but oftentimes it wouldn't. I'm no longer going to do this, nor are any of the officers. At this point, its becoming a bigger deal since it seems that half the guild and officers want to make the guild more raiding orientated and half the guild wants to stay casual and have a good time together raiding and joking around. It seems this has become a bigger deal because we have lost people in the last couple months to "lack of progression or wanting to raid more hardcore" I feel like decisions like this should have been presented to the guild as a whole. While there are officers, this is supposed to be a "family" guild full of friends, there are 30+ raiders here. Some decisions are not an "Officer knows best" and are better presented to the guild to see how they want to progress. Not just as a pole type thing either. i agree with what anksy said earlier, a casual guild is one that is flexible. This post and the raid attitude lately makes it seem as though the officers want to lead this to a semi-casual more raid orientated guild. In response to something earlier, I call complete bull shit on the whole "no one wants to see anyone be kicked" statement. I can honestly say, i have no problem with mort or will. I was not here where whatever issues happened that required them to be kicked before. As a person essentially looking from the outside in, all i see is raiders, officers, and even friends and family getting on their case. They were both brought back, both are performing well. That should be the end of the discussion. Whatever issues that there were should have been done with when they came back. But it seems like when they get "picked" on, and then try to defend themselves or say something, its not taken seriously or they end up in trouble or with warnings. This solves nothing. It basically is the officers enabling this to happen and leading to the result of those two being given "final" warnings about their guild status. How is this fair? If the officers are going to enable and even contribute to this talk. How is that not "wanting" someone out of the guild? Its basically waiting for that person to either do something to get kicked or get sick of the treatment and leave on their own. I know how much work a guild is to run, lead, recruit for and make productive. I have been there. It is not fun and extremely stressful. I just think that this is not the best way to go about this. Especially if people who have been here long amounts of time and have seen how the guild was to where it is not are not happy or wanting to be in raids/show up. This is my 2 cents on the issue. We are not changing the parameters of the raid. We are only going to make the raid more efficient and stop wasting people's time. It is super frustrating to only have 7 hours to raid a week only to log in and waste half of that time because people are acting like jackasses, arguing, ass-pulling, not being prepared etc. That's what these new guidelines are meant to address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I used to be in a server first hardcore guild, hence my Immortal title and black proto. If when I left, I went to this guild's site and saw this "rules" post, I would roll my eyes and move on. Anyone who wants to app to the guild and sees that post will probably do the same because it's ridiculous and no matter if it's more "guidelines" or "rules" it makes us look like elitist jerks (and not the good kind). The stop signs with the white outlines are optional, right? I'm not worried about myself, but the only people who talk in healer chat, who make this game social and fun, either want to be or going to be gone because of this attitude. What's the point of a guild, then? I might as well go kill bosses in LFR if I want to get loots without talking to anyone. Everyone is so tightly wound and on edge because of all the new rules. How about we scrap the rules and just use common sense? It was an accident? Ok, no harm. Too much talking? Clear the chatter. Making fun of someone? Stop or you get kicked. Late for raid? Sorry, someone else got your spot but you can sit and wait. I seriously feel like we're being parented. "Don't do this or we're going to take your toys even if it's an accident!" /shakes finger Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabelockjr Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Well, I don't feel officers are being hard core. A bit more strict? yeah... Too strict? mmm nah... some people are feeling threatened for no reason. Some are insulting and accusing for no reason... Dudes... Players are gonna play... and raiders are gonna raid... just shake it off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Everyone is so tightly wound and on edge because of all the new rules. How about we scrap the rules and just use common sense? It was an accident? Ok, no harm. Too much talking? Clear the chatter. Making fun of someone? Stop or you get kicked. Late for raid? Sorry, someone else got your spot but you can sit and wait. I seriously feel like we're being parented. "Don't do this or we're going to take your toys even if it's an accident!" /shakes finger Sigh. We tried to just use common sense. See "ATR, all of 2014". It didn't work. As I said before, a majority of the guild doesn't even need to worry about these rules. But we will be using them against the small minority that requires them. The ironic thing is that we've heard a lot of feedback from people like you and Summa who are just a pleasure to raid with and never cause issues. You guys have nothing to worry about. This isn't targeting you. It's meant to make the raid environment BETTER for you, not worse. Well, I don't feel officers are being hard core. A bit more strict? yeah... Too strict? mmm nah... some people are feeling threatened for no reason. Some are insulting and accusing for no reason... Dudes... Players are gonna play... and raiders are gonna raid... just shake it off... It's easy to view our new rules as being more hardcore because it aligns with a more hardcore mentality. But that's not the intent. Efficient =/= Hardcore, but they do go hand-in-hand. We are casual because we raid 2 days a week and focus on having fun and not being dicks more than progression. There are two day a week raiding guilds who ARE hardcore who treat their raids like the most important thing humanity has going on. If you make one mistake, they jump down your back. That's not our guild, that's not what we're going to become. Let me ask you guys a question to further the dialogue: How was the first raid with the new rules? I thought that we were focused and accomplished a lot but there was still joking around and having fun. Edited February 11, 2015 by Lyntha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshattner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 To say I'm only deflecting and not admitting that I do sometimes talk too much or step over the lines with somethings i say is complete bullshit. I'll easily admitt I'm not the easiest person to get a long with, however I was invited back to this guild with the understanding that I would have a clean slate and this has not been the case. Sure I might need to look at myself about some things but so do you. To simply say all I do is deflect and take no blame is just an easy out for you and I expect more from a person in your position. The stigma from me being kicked on false pretenses has continued to stay with me and the officers have done nothing but help further that and not to prevent or end it as it should be done. I'm not asking for people to like me, I'm not asking for a pitty party, all I want is to be left alone and let raid. It's just that simple. I'm over being the scapegoat for everything when theres no need for it. These clearly an unequal treament of people in this guild which has been brought up in other posts in this topic, yet you just skip over that and don't address it. Also as far as gump calling me a racist, that is a completly slanderous claim and I am owed an apology for such a bold and false claim made against me. TLDR: just everyone stop fucking with me and just let me show up and raid and you won't have issues with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I wasn't around when you got kicked on false pretenses. I had no opinion of you from prior to when you came back into the raid. It's absurd to say that you have a stigma from me from then. If you feel that somebody is fucking with you, tell the officers and let us handle it. We let you just show up and raid last night and you did an awesome job. If we didn't want you in the guild, we would have kicked you already. We want you to be the same person you were last night, every night. This is the last that I am going to discuss your disciplinary decisions. I am frankly getting tired of repeating myself and it's getting on my nerves. We have discussed everything that needs to be discussed. Move forward and quit lingering in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) The issue was SOO in 2014. We kept recruiting new people and they required more than what we could offer, and the environment went to shit, and it carried over to now. It doesn't have to be that way. We don't need this. We just need to listen to our raiders and have fun playing the game. I'm serious though. Just for tonight, say fuck the rules and do what feels right. It will lift a weight off everyone's shoulders while still having order. Edited February 11, 2015 by Ansky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyntha Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 The issue was SOO in 2014. We kept recruiting new people and they required more than what we could offer, and the environment went to shit, and it carried over to now. It doesn't have to be that way. We don't need this. We just need to listen to our raiders and have fun playing the game. We tried to do so Ansky. I thought it would work. It clearly didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshattner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 What's absurd is how you danced around the majority of my post, but I know this isn't going to get anywhere so I won't bother trying to talk more about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourettsbear Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Ansky, I'm not interested in raiding in an environment that a) people show up unenchanted people wipe to the same mechanics over and over c) people call eachother terrible things and down right mean to eachother.. If it's not monitored, the above happens.. It's silly, because it's so little..yet everyone finds it sincerely difficult to do. You and I are the perfect example of something. You were apped to this guild under the basis of a 2 day casual raid schedule where you have fun. I apped to this guild under the basis that this was a 2 day progression mindset. where you have fun. There is little difference between the two..But, I'm currently feeling jipped of the agreement which was made to me when being accepted to this guild.. You're currently feeling jipped as the you feel the casualness is gone. I think these new rules address both. Casual, Fun, enjoying the raid is what we're after. While still progressing. I find it disrespectful to ATR to show up unenchanted.. I honestly take that as "You dont care how well we do". It has nothing to do with hard core/casual..Just respecting eachothers goals.. EVERYONE can get what they want from raiding in this guild if we respect each others goals. To say I'm only deflecting and not admitting that I do sometimes talk too much or step over the lines with somethings i say is complete bullshit. I'll easily admitt I'm not the easiest person to get a long with, however I was invited back to this guild with the understanding that I would have a clean slate and this has not been the case. Sure I might need to look at myself about some things but so do you. To simply say all I do is deflect and take no blame is just an easy out for you and I expect more from a person in your position. The stigma from me being kicked on false pretenses has continued to stay with me and the officers have done nothing but help further that and not to prevent or end it as it should be done. I'm not asking for people to like me, I'm not asking for a pitty party, all I want is to be left alone and let raid. It's just that simple. I'm over being the scapegoat for everything when theres no need for it. These clearly an unequal treament of people in this guild which has been brought up in other posts in this topic, yet you just skip over that and don't address it. Also as far as gump calling me a racist, that is a completly slanderous claim and I am owed an apology for such a bold and false claim made against me. TLDR: just everyone stop fucking with me and just let me show up and raid and you won't have issues with me. Will, it is true, a biased has been set against you. I personally do not have it. I consider you an extreme personality who is fun to be around. How do you propose we fix this? You've rubbed some people the wrong way. We all want you to continue raiding with us man. The "action plan" has been set.. But outside of that, give me some positive feedback on how you think we can make the raid environment a stronger place for you. If you have valid suggestions, I'll enforce them myself.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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